The Challenge

Zero wrote:

Superbuu3 wrote:

Zero wrote:

The ANBU are like weak-mid Jounin level minus a few obvious ones (Itachi and Kakashi when they were in). And they were using some of the most powerful Sound and Sand Ninja to fight with.

ANBU are made out to be way stronger at that point. They're ninja elite they should be best of the best.

The majority of the known Jounin were stronger like Kurenai, Asuma, Guy, Kakashi, etc.

Because Kurenai really proved her skill right? Also what did Asuma do that was noteworthy?

Kakashi has one jutsu everything he has aside from that is from the sharingan. Guy's the only one who is actually that amazing, and its noteworthy that he's the only one Itachi considered a threat.

Superbuu3 wrote:

Zero wrote:

Superbuu3 wrote:

Zero wrote:

The ANBU are like weak-mid Jounin level minus a few obvious ones (Itachi and Kakashi when they were in). And they were using some of the most powerful Sound and Sand Ninja to fight with.

ANBU are made out to be way stronger at that point. They're ninja elite they should be best of the best.

The majority of the known Jounin were stronger like Kurenai, Asuma, Guy, Kakashi, etc.

Because Kurenai really proved her skill right? Also what did Asuma do that was noteworthy?

Kakashi has one jutsu everything he has aside from that is from the sharingan. Guy's the only one who is actually that amazing, and its noteworthy that he's the only one Itachi considered a threat.

Lol. Just how far did you read into this manga? Kakashi has proved on more than several occasions that he is borderline Kage level to Kage level. Guy considers Kakashi his equal. Asuma was owning the Sound Jounin that were taking out ANBU. And Kurenai is really strong in Genjutsu, said to be only rivaled by Itachi in that area.

And also Itachi considered Jiraiya and Kakashi (Later on) as threats. But then again, Itachi is top tier in this manga. Only a select few can legitimately defeat him in a healthy state.

For fuck's sake, so many episodes with the Hokage trying to pull Orochimaru's soul with Kusanagi sword stabbing him, only to have the fucker die and nothing more than his former student's arms disabled

I hate a lot in this Masashi guy storytelling

You can blame the animation crew for that. The manga didn't drag that on as long. It mainly focused on Naruto and Gaara and didn't show too much of Shiki Fujin/Reaper Death Seal.

Zero wrote:

Lol. Just how far did you read into this manga? Kakashi has proved on more than several occasions that he is borderline Kage level to Kage level. Guy considers Kakashi his equal. Asuma was owning the Sound Jounin that were taking out ANBU. And Kurenai is really strong in Genjutsu, said to be only rivaled by Itachi in that area.

And also Itachi considered Jiraiya and Kakashi (Later on) as threats. But then again, Itachi is top tier in this manga. Only a select few can legitimately defeat him in a healthy state.

I never read the manga. Either way bringing up shippudden stuff now is kinda stupid considering what i just said was stated fact, for pre time skip Kakashi. He only had one jutsu.

I'll give you asuma vs sound jonin though, assuming those actually were jonin, I don't remember if that was ever stated they could've been chunin, seeing as it was a small village they couldn't have had that many jonin. Also Kurenai what has she actually done. Are you next going to argue Tenten is the best user of weapons?

Superbuu3 wrote:

Zero wrote:

Lol. Just how far did you read into this manga? Kakashi has proved on more than several occasions that he is borderline Kage level to Kage level. Guy considers Kakashi his equal. Asuma was owning the Sound Jounin that were taking out ANBU. And Kurenai is really strong in Genjutsu, said to be only rivaled by Itachi in that area.

And also Itachi considered Jiraiya and Kakashi (Later on) as threats. But then again, Itachi is top tier in this manga. Only a select few can legitimately defeat him in a healthy state.

I never read the manga. Either way bringing up shippudden stuff now is kinda stupid considering what i just said was stated fact, for pre time skip Kakashi. He only had one jutsu.

I'll give you asuma vs sound jonin though, assuming those actually were jonin, I don't remember if that was ever stated they could've been chunin, seeing as it was a small village they couldn't have had that many jonin. Also Kurenai what has she actually done. Are you next going to argue Tenten is the best user of weapons?

Kakashi beat Zabuza in his own type of territory. He had many water styles and his Lightning Blade. He was soundly the best Jounin of the village with Guy and in Shippuden he's basically the best Jounin period. Kurenai didn't really get the chance to showcase what she did, but she was stated to have Genjutsu prowess on the level near Itachi. But when going against the Sharingan in Genjutsu it's really difficult to win. Especially Itachi (Who is the best Genjutsu user period at this point). Kakashi was in ANBU when he was like 13, shortly after becoming Jounin. Of course he's far past any ANBU by Part I. Even people of other villages know Kakashi's name very well.

All the water techniques he used were Zabuza's. He also didn't use lightning techniques against Zabuza I don't know where your getting this from.

Obviously kakashi would be in the bingo books he's got the sharingan. But without it my point is he'd be nothing.

Superbuu3 wrote:

All the water techniques he used were Zabuza's. He also didn't use lightning techniques against Zabuza I don't know where your getting this from.

Obviously kakashi would be in the bingo books he's got the sharingan. But without it my point is he'd be nothing.

Well you're correct to an extent. He wouldn't be nearly as powerful, yes. But he would still be one of the best Jounin in the village. Even before he got his Sharingan, he was considered a genius. I mean, when he had first become a Jounin, he fought on equal terms with veteran Jounin. And he was taught by none other than the 4th Hokage. I think he would be more skilled than Asuma and Kurenai, but not nearly as strong as he is with Sharingan.

And the water techniques weren't necessarily just because of Zabuza. The Sharingan doesn't just instantly copy a technique. It notices the minute detail and allows the user to be able to copy the hand seals. But you need to have trained in a specific element to be able to use the Jutsu and you have to be familiar with the Jutsu. In order for him to have mirrored Zabuza's Jutsu, he would have had to at least seen the Jutsu once or more and be able to use Water style. And Zabuza explains himself that Kakashi was using Genjutsu on him to have Zabuza use specific water style Jutsu.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-31-14/naruto/chapter-26.html

He used the water techniques after zabuza though and like i said they even said Kakashi has only one jutsu, that's stated.

BTW Kurenai is still crap i haven't heard you explain why she should be considered good or past ANBU level through an actual feat.

Superbuu3 wrote:

He used the water techniques after zabuza though and like i said they even said Kakashi has only one jutsu, that's stated.

BTW Kurenai is still crap i haven't heard you explain why she should be considered good or past ANBU level through an actual feat.

She's only been in one fight in canon and that was against Itachi. So you're not going to be able to any feats. But the databook is clear that she is really good with Genjutsu (The databook is written by Kishimoto). Although I guess if you want a semi-feat, she was able to get out of Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu unharmed. That is really hard to do apparently.

And about Kakashi, that is not true. They said he only has only created one Jutsu of his own. I hardly see your point. Creating your own Jutsu isn't easy apparently. Very few people these days do. Everyone is taught Jutsu from the Academy on.

Jiraya's preaching talk about money reminds me of JJ here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmw6cy6bwc0

Everything i've seen kakashi do someone did before him in the pre time skip.

Hell evenj Sasuke was pulling out more awesome stuff with the fire stuff.

It was stated Chidori is Kakashi's only original move

Superbuu3 wrote:

Everything i've seen kakashi do someone did before him in the pre time skip.

Hell evenj Sasuke was pulling out more awesome stuff with the fire stuff.

Again, what's your point? He has elemental affinity with Lightning, Earth and Water. So naturally, he can perform them if he studies them carefully enough. Those natures do not require the Sharingan. It just helps him copy the hand seals that are required. But that can be learned in time too.

And also, you failed to account for Headhunter Jutsu, which only Kakashi really does. It's not his original Jutsu but so what? He created Chidori and that's all he ever needed to create. The Fourth Hokage only made two Jutsu of his own and the rest of his arsenal came from his wife's clan.

When a guy copies a water clone after he sees a water clone or cast a water dragon after when we see a water dragon. Then only starts using shadow clones after Naruto it questions his abilities. I'm not really seeing any actual argument to prove his skill other then it sounding like your a huge kakashi fan, which is fine. But don't make out he's a godly character without the sharingan.

You'll have to remind me what the headhunter jutsu is as i have no clue what your talking about. You are obviously talking crap about the 4th Hokage to because we know he made at least 3 ninjutsu, so this he made 2 ninjutsu isn't true and obviously not stated. Assuming a character who has no screen time can only do what we've seen when stated to be one of the strongest ninja ever. Then arguing a ninja stated to have 1 ninjutsu, who has loads of screentime has more is nonsense.

Superbuu3 wrote:

When a guy copies a water clone after he sees a water clone or cast a water dragon after when we see a water dragon. Then only starts using shadow clones after Naruto it questions his abilities. I'm not really seeing any actual argument to prove his skill other then it sounding like your a huge kakashi fan, which is fine. But don't make out he's a godly character without the sharingan.

You'll have to remind me what the headhunter jutsu is as i have no clue what your talking about. You are obviously talking crap about the 4th Hokage to because we know he made at least 3 ninjutsu, so this he made 2 ninjutsu isn't true and obviously not stated. Assuming a character who has no screen time can only do what we've seen when stated to be one of the strongest ninja ever. Then arguing a ninja stated to have 1 ninjutsu, who has loads of screentime has more is nonsense.

No, the Fourth Hokage only created Rasengan and Flying Thunder God. Every sealing technique he knows is from the Uzumaki clan. And Kakashi uses lightning shadow clones, water clones and normal shadow clones. It's not like he gained it from Naruto. Almost every top level Jounin can use them as well as the Third Hokage. And actually Kakashi used a Genjutsu on Zabuza to suggest Water Dragon Jutsu, which he did. In order for him to have performed it, he must have already known of the Jutsu. He also did Giant Vortex Jutsu before Zabuza could, showing that he knew the Jutsu before he did it. Yes, I'm a Kakashi fan, but you're sounding more like a Kakashi hater than I am a fan.

I never said anything about being godly. If you actually read what I said, I said that without the Sharingan he wouldn't be nearly as strong. But he'd still be a strong Jounin.

He also used a Genjutsu before anyone else could in the series.

This is headhunter http://www.mangareader.net/93-7-11/naruto/chapter-7.html

By the way, I'm not hating on 4th Hokage at all. He isn't stated to be the strongest Ninja ever though. That belongs to both Hashirama and Hiruzen. The only piece of media that claims he's the strongest is a fake interview. He became strong as hell though, only creating 2 Ninjutsu. You act like Kakashi is weak because he only created one Jutsu and the rest were taught to him or he taught himself. That's just dumb.

Quote :

He also used a Genjutsu before anyone else could in the series.

He invented Genjutsu?

Baal wrote:

Quote :

He also used a Genjutsu before anyone else could in the series.

He invented Genjutsu?

No, but he was the first one on screen to show a Genjutsu. That was Buu's argument, that everytime Kakashi used something that it was already previously used.

Wasn't that just what zabuza assumed, he also thought kakashi was psychic so thats all a bit dubious.

I'll take your word for it that the uzumaki clan made the ninjutsu, but didn't 3rd hokage or Orochimaru while fighting orochi even refer to it as the 4th Hokages sealing jutsu. Also i'm sure there's people stronger then 4th Hokage all we know is he must've been ridiculously strong as even orochimaru struggles against 4 tail naruto and he took the Kyuubi down himself.

Also i don't hate kakashi i think he's one of the better characters i do hate the Sharingan and all of its hax. Seeing as basically the show pretty much just started to revolve around that. Alright I guess he does use at least one technique we haven't seen yet.

Superbuu3 wrote:

Wasn't that just what zabuza assumed, he also thought kakashi was psychic so thats all a bit dubious.

It was Haku who analyzed the battle.

Quote :

I'll take your word for it that the uzumaki clan made the ninjutsu, but didn't 3rd hokage or Orochimaru while fighting orochi even refer to it as the 4th Hokages sealing jutsu. Also i'm sure there's people stronger then 4th Hokage all we know is he must've been ridiculously strong as even orochimaru struggles against 4 tail naruto and he took the Kyuubi down himself.

I'm not sure of the exact wording, but I think it became known as his sealing Jutsu because he used it to seal the Nine Tailed Fox. Also, Kushina did help out the 4th in sealing him. But yeah, he was ridiculously powerful from what we saw.

Quote :

Also i don't hate kakashi i think he's one of the better characters i do hate the Sharingan and all of its hax. Seeing as basically the show pretty much just started to revolve around that. Alright I guess he does use at least one technique we haven't seen yet.

Ah, I see. Yeah, the Sharingan stuff with Sasuke is ridiculous. It became even more haxed recently in the manga.

I was pretty much sick and tired of the sharingan when they went back on that whole byakugan is the strongest as its the sharigan in its purest form or something.

Underdogs are intersting but turning the main characters (sasuke/naruto) into complete hax just made shit boring. The reason i stopped watching was because naruto popped up and ruined one of the best post time skip arcs by one shotting some guy with the rasenshuriken.

Kakashi introduced gengestu display on Sakura in their survival training
Also, with Kakashi the summoning technique and replacement techniques were displayed

Superbuu3 wrote:

I was pretty much sick and tired of the sharingan when they went back on that whole byakugan is the strongest as its the sharigan in its purest form or something.

Underdogs are intersting but turning the main characters (sasuke/naruto) into complete hax just made shit boring. The reason i stopped watching was because naruto popped up and ruined one of the best post time skip arcs by one shotting some guy with the rasenshuriken.

Oh gosh, if you thought Naruto was bad then, you should see Naruto now if you're not up to date on the manga. Yeah the Byakugan has really fallen far. Kakashi's statement was that the Byakugan surpasses the Sharingan in sight (Which still holds true today; The Sharingan can't see as far or as wide as the Byakugan). But the Sharingan has just become more and more haxed as it has gone along.

tl;dr, Naruto has become just horrible and Sasuke isn't too far behind him.

Can naruto actually use jutsu now. I found it somewhat suprising that after three years of training with Jiraiya, he managed to learn how to dispell a genjutsu (the easy way) and to just pump more chakra into the rasengan. Seeing as he learned the rasenshuriken post time skip in a matter of days that was plain dumb.

Superbuu3 wrote:

Can naruto actually use jutsu now. I found it somewhat suprising that after three years of training with Jiraiya, he managed to learn how to dispell a genjutsu (the easy way) and to just pump more chakra into the rasengan. Seeing as he learned the rasenshuriken post time skip in a matter of days that was plain dumb.

He can use different variations of Rasengan and Bijudama. That's about it for new Jutsu since then. Otherwise his other stuff is basically just new modes like Sage Mode, Kyuubi Mode and Biju Mode. Jiraiya is a horrible teacher compared to Kakashi lol. He did more for Naruto in a matter of a few days than Jiraiya did over a matter of 2 and a half years. At least Sasuke used different Jutsu and has some pretty cool ones like Chidori Nagashi (He releases Chidori around his entire body which I thought was pretty cool). But once he got MS his fighting style went completely dull.